Re: [MW:9082] Combination of PQR for WPS

Dear John

 

Agreed .

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

K. Babu

----- Original Message -----

From: John Henning

To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 10:59 PM

Subject: RE: [MW:9080] Combination of PQR for WPS

What you say would be correct if a single coupon with base metal thickness of 38mm was welded with 6mm of GTAW and balance SAW.  However, since each process is qualified separately, you can record the qualified welding process thicknesses for each process from each PQR.    ASME allows a combined process WPS to be used as combined WPS or for each process separately as qualified.  Thus the example WPS could be used for welding with a GTAW root with SAW fill or for welding with only SAW only (because QW-200.4 was used, GTAW would be limited to the original qualified base metal  thickness if done separately).  For the example thickness cited, this is probably not significantly important.  But for lesser PQR thickness of the fill process, could become important.  For example, say you combined a GTAW PQR as stated in the example with a SAW PQR with base metal thickness of 25mm (back gouged and back welded).   The combined WPS could be used to weld 50mm thick base metal with either GTAW root (0 to 12mm) and SAW (38mm to 50mm)  or SAW alone (50mm).  It depends on how you write your WPS as back gouging is a non-essential variable (QW-410.6) which must be addressed.  If you would like the WPS to be applicable to both situations you could address this with a statement such as:   "GTAW root or back gouge and back weld with SAW.  If back gouged, grind  or  air arc and grind to sound metal."     This provides more flexibility to your manufacturing people and has the potential to simplify your weld maps.

 

John

 

From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kathalingam Babu
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 6:43 PM
To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:9071] Combination of PQR for WPS

 

Dear John,

 

Thanks for the response ; though i am not sure , on the item 1, we have to see any ASME official interpretations.

 

On item 2 , as we know, we can't stack thickness to exceed the qualified limits, my understanding as follows when we clubbing,

 

Qualified base metal range:  5mm to 200mm

Qualified maximum GTAW deposit thickness:  12mm

Qualified maximum SAW deposit thickness:  188 mm

 

So that , combined thk will not exceed the 200 mm.  The Qualified maximum SAW deposit thickness is 200 mm is ok when we write for the WPS for the SAW alone.

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

K. Babu

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Henning

To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 11:52 PM

Subject: RE: [MW:9068] Combination of PQR for WPS

 

Sorry for slow reply –New Years holiday intervened.  See my replies below:

 

John

From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kathalingam Babu
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7:06 PM
To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:0] Combination of PQR for WPS

 

Mr.John,

 

Based on the question 2, i have clarification,

 

1) Is it psossible to club the WPS, even if the PQR is not recorded on min.13 mm thk plate or pipe ?  Yes – but you would be restricted to the minimum base metal thickness permitted by the intersection of the two PQRs.  As an example similar to the one stated previously, assume that PQR-1  was performed with GTAW on 10mm plate and PQR-2 was performed on 38mm plate with SAW.  PQR-1 supports a GTAW WPS with base metal thickness range of 5mm to 20mm and PQR-2 supports a SAW WPS with base metal thickness range of 5mm to 200mm.  If you were to combine the two, the combined WPS would only support a base metal thickness range of 5mm to 20mm because the GTAW process is unsupported for any base metal thickness greater than 20mm.

 

2) Last but one ,

 

Qualified maximum SAW deposit thickness:  200mm or 188 mm , for the combined base metal thickness ranges ?  See 2010 ASME Section IX, QW451.1,  38mm will base metal thickness range of 5mm to 200mm.

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

K. Babu

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Henning

To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 1:46 AM

Subject: RE: [MW:8997] Combination of PQR for WPS

 

QW-200.4 (a) allows you to combine these two PQR's to support a single WPS.  In such a case the WPS will be restricted to the minimum range qualified by the PQR base metals (per QW-451);  i.e. the intersection of the two individual qualified ranges.   Therefore, your WPS would allow the following (assuming no impact requirements):

 

Qualified base metal range:  5mm to 12mm  ( 1.5mm < T1 < 12mm, 5mm < T2 < 30mm )

Maximum Qualified GTAW deposit:  12mm

Maximum qualified SMAW deposit:  12mm

 

 

REF:  (from HSB site)  Interpretations – File No. BC-80-628, no interpretation number

 

Question (2): A WPS is being written for groove welding of pipe to utilize a GTAW root pass and SMAW fill. A previously qualified PQR welded on a ¼ in. thick test plate using GTAW and a previously qualified PQR welded on a 3/8 in. thick test plate using SMAW are to be used to support the combination WPS. What are the maximum thickness ranges of the combination WPS?

Reply (2): Based on Question (2), the deposited weld metal thickness range for the GTAW is 1/16 in. through ½ in. and for the SMAW is 1/16 in. through ¾ in. The base metal thickness range for the combination WPS is 1/16 in. through ½ in.

 

Ref. also, HSB topic Specific Code FAQs:

 

Q: Is it possible to apply two separately qualified WPS's to the same joint in combination without qualification of a combined PQR?

A: Per QW-200.4, it is acceptable to apply both WPS's to the same joint without further qualification. The deposited weld metal qualification ranges may be "stacked", allowing the application of the maximum qualified thickness of deposited weld metal for each WPS/process in a single joint. However, the user is cautioned that the maximum base metal thickness qualified for the most limiting WPS must be applied. The base metal thickness ranges cannot be "stacked" to qualify for a greater thickness in combination. (In my opinion the italicized section also applies to the minimum qualified thickness as well as the maximum)

If impacts were required, since there would be no intersection of qualified base metal thickness, one could not combine the two PQR's to support a valid WPS.  New PQR(s) would have to be performed.

 

QW-200.4(b) is an exception to the general rules for root pass process qualified with a PQR with base metal thickness > 13mm, and a second PQR for a fill process qualified with a base metal thickness greater than the base metal thickness used with the root pass PQR.  With the enquirers conditions, QW-200.4(b) does  not apply as both PQRs would have to have been performed on material thickness greater than 13mm which is not the case.  One example of an acceptable combination would be PQR 1 –13mm thick base metal w/ GTAW root (for the purpose of example say 6mm deposit thickness, t) combined with PQR 2:  38mm base metal thickness welded completely by SAW

These conditions would result in a combined WPS such as:

 

Qualified base metal range:  5mm to 200mm

Qualified maximum GTAW deposit thickness:  12mm

Qualified maximum SAW deposit thickness:  200mm

 

Hope this helps - John

 

 

From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of praveen alavandar
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:35 AM
To: materials-welding@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:8984] Combination of PQR for WPS

 

manpreet,   you still cannot combine both these PQRs, you should either use PQR 1 or PQR 2.   Regards,   Praveen --- On Wed, 12/29/10, manpreet <manpreetsin88@rediffmail.com> wrote: From: manpreet <manpreetsin88@rediffmail.com> Subject: Re: [MW:8979] Combination of PQR for WPS To: "materials-welding@googlegroups.com" <materials-welding@googlegroups.com> Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2010, 3:25 PM Dear Pravin, Thanks for your valuable feedback. I did consider QW-200.4(b) and wanted further calrification so i raised this point, now i would present actual ranges, no impact required PQR 1-  1.5mm to 12mm PQR 2-   5mm to 30mm  Combined:- 5mm to 12mm, is it ok now? Regards Manpreet Singh On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:32:29 , praveen alavandar <praveenakds@yahoo.com> wrote Manpreet,   You cannot support combining these two PQR's to prepare a WPS having a wide range from 1.5mm to 30mm, you are deviating from the clause QW-200.4(b) of ASME Sec.IX. see below.   "For GTAW, SMAW, GMAW, PAW, and SAW, or combinations of these processes, a PQR for a process recording a test coupon that was at least 1⁄2 in. (13 mm) thick may be combined with one or more other PQRs recording another welding process and any greater base metal thickness. In this case, the process recorded on the first PQR may be used to deposit the root layers using the process(es) recorded on that PQR up to 2t (for shortcircuiting type of GMAW, see QW-404.32) in thickness on base metal of the maximum thickness qualified by the other PQR(s) used to support the WPS. The requirements of Note (1) of tables QW-451.1 and QW-451.2 shall apply."   So you will have,   for PQR 1 : WPS range : 1.5mm to 12mm (Without impact) & 2.5mm to 12mm (With impact) assuming you dont do a PWHT above the upper transformation temperature.   For PQR 2: WPS range : 5mm to 30mm (Without impact) & 15mm to 30mm (With impact)   Regards,   Praveen --- On Wed, 12/29/10, Bathula Raghuram (Mumbai - PIPING) <R.Bathula@ticb.com> wrote: From: Bathula Raghuram (Mumbai - PIPING) <R.Bathula@ticb.com> Subject: RE: [MW:8975] Combination of PQR for WPS To: "materials-welding" <materials-welding@googlegroups.com> Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2010, 12:57 PM 5-12mm w/o impact, else 6-12mm   From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of manpreet Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:03 PM To: materials-welding Subject: [MW:8974] Combination of PQR for WPS   Dear All, Procedure qualification as per ASME sec ix, I have 2 PQR:-                         *PQR 1-   GTaw-6mm thick                          *PQR 2-   Smaw- 15 mm thick What would be the thickness renge for base and weld metal? for combined WPS,  base metal thickness range shall be 1.5mm to 30mm, am i correct? Regards Manpreet Singh -- To post to this group, send email to materials-welding@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to materials-welding+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group's bolg at http://materials-welding.blogspot.com/ The views expressed/exchnaged in this group are members personel views and meant for educational purposes only, Users must take their own decisions w.r.t. applicable code/standard/contract documents.   -- To post to this group, send email to materials-welding@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to materials-welding+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group's bolg at http://materials-welding.blogspot.com/ The views expressed/exchnaged in this group are members personel views and meant for educational purposes only, Users must take their own decisions w.r.t. applicable code/standard/contract documents. -- To post to this group, send email to materials-welding@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to materials-welding+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group's bolg at http://materials-welding.blogspot.com/ The views expressed/exchnaged in this group are members personel views and meant for educational purposes only, Users must take their own decisions w.r.t. applicable code/standard/contract documents.

 

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