Re: Re: [MW:29191] Backing gas as per API RP 582

Hi Gene,

You said you were welding 2in. schedule 20 SS pipe by the GTAW process. These weld joints were 'open butt' with a purge?

Reply - Right

You welded 300 Ft of pipe and  the system is installed. Now you found that you had to 'install' a  wear pad and their is no way that you can purge the 2in pipe to protect the inside of the 2 SS pipe at the point where you need to install the fillet welded wear pad? 2 in. schedule 20 is very, very thin wall pipe. The following is a couple of ideas that you could have tried.

Reply - Exactly

1. You could have installed the wear pad simply by using a couple of 'U' clamps around the pipe & wear pad.

Reply - Well design requirements on fixed welding with U clamps will not be a consideration for design as ''lieu'' if owners requirements are stringent.

2. You could have cut the pipe close to where the wear pad was to be installed. Install 2 paper dams on the interior of the pipe & purge through your root gap with a 'football needle or small diamerter copper tubing.

Reply - Nice idea if minor modifications, but cost/time impact if major modifications, as i said when you are attaching during fabrication you have to purge one time for butt welds and outside fillets wear pad, if you dont and if one could use your option one has to cut 2 joint for one fillet in the case 100 wear pads then then you are cutting pipes so many in Nos and have to weld and again NDEs and it goes...

3.  I advise you to purchase a borescope so you  can visually inspect the inside diameters, back side, of small diameter SS purged butt welds. 

Reply - I tried with boroscope for some other root visual for laterals where small diameteres root penetrations impossible for visual, where in some extent i am not satisified with boroscope when compare to visual, anyhow it depends upon the company used.

and thanks for your suggestions.

Regards,

MOHAMED MUNEEB MAHABOOB

From: 'GENE MATSKO' via Materials & Welding

Date: 2019-03-03 00:46

To: materials-welding

Subject: Re: [MW:29183] Backing gas as per API RP 582

I am glad that you resolved your 'quandry'. Please let me propose another solution for the future. 

You said you were welding 2in. schedule 20 SS pipe by the GTAW process. These weld joints were 'open butt' with a purge?

You welded 300 Ft of pipe and  the system is installed. Now you found that you had to 'install' a  wear pad and their is no way that you can purge the 2in pipe to protect the inside of the 2 SS pipe at the point where you need to install the fillet welded wear pad? 2 in. schedule 20 is very, very thin wall pipe. The following is a couple of ideas that you could have tried.

1. You could have installed the wear pad simply by using a couple of 'U' clamps around the pipe & wear pad.

2. You could have cut the pipe close to where the wear pad was to be installed. Install 2 paper dams on the interior of the pipe & purge through your root gap with a 'football needle or small diamerter copper tubing.

3.  I advise you to purchase a borescope so you  can visually inspect the inside diameters, back side, of small diameter SS purged butt welds. 

  I have TIG welded 1 in. SS tubing  by using  the autogenous orbital Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (GTAW).  

Sincerely,

 inshallah,

Steel_Microbe 

 

On ‎Saturday‎, ‎March‎ ‎2‎, ‎2019‎ ‎07‎:‎11‎:‎44‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CST, muneebslsa@gmail.com <muneebslsa@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Microbe, 

That's right, you sniffed the bottom catch contemplating on the right scenario irrelevant of the case relaxation is not entertained here and as you know the hindrance like at end times had to do something like what you have said, the sequel is something like i had to disagree as a contractor as this is cost impact and unanticipated requirement and at the same year i had to join as owner representative for same client where my italian contractor also did not agreeing with this requirement, so there came a mutual agreement of mock up test, where in both agreement we had to agree something if you get a first 2 to 3 colors can be accepted, other colors cases to be purged, it was made finalized something like that.

But for me correction can be very simple and easy when you fabricate with all bosses connections same time purge as you will purge to normal welds and finish it of one time with no hide and seek.

Note: mother pipe to wear pad fillet outside welding cases (non purging filler is a futile).

 

---

Regards,

MOHAMED MUNEEB MAHABOOB

From: steel_microbe

Date: 2019-03-02 04:37

To: Materials & Welding

Subject: Re: Re: [MW:29179] Backing gas as per API RP 582

Dear Muneeb,

It would be wise for you to do a 'mock-up' of the exact conditions, processes etc. Cut the 'mock-up' in half after completing the welding and assure your-self 

your getting the results you want, If not, modify the conditions, such as  lowering  the amperage, increase the weld  travel speed etc. come -up with a procedure that meets your requirements.

 

From: Mohamed Muneeb

Date: 2019-03-01 13:54

To: materials-welding

Subject: Re: Re: [MW:29177] Backing gas as per API RP 582

Dear Suresh,

I do not disagree at all and I do agree with chromium depletion 2 to 5 mm where oxidation/heat tints some clients mandates, it was explicit anyhow my scenario it is to be contemplated that 2 inch mother pipe inside inaccessible to passive and end to end connections is far from centre weld, in this even you have fillers or electrodes compatible doesn't need to purge still the question is for mother pipe internal.

Hence complete all the attachments / bosses before hydro and considering all the configuration it should be mandated before the project and explicit written procedure should be incorporated/approved and international standard should come in amendment for all welds type and open root should withdrawn.

Thanks for understanding.

Thanks 

Mohamed Muneeb.

On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-6, suresh Fluor wrote:

Dear Mohammed, 

I do agree with that there is constrain for it depends on  joint configuration where chromium depletion is effected . Manoj asked that question in his first email " Is it mean that if we do welding with SMAW process back purging is not required?" then answer would be " not required". 

Further more experts are enlarged the answers with different scenario's where end to end or open root for piping & fittings etc...

In addition to that there is TGX filler wire is available (TGX is manufacturer name ) where purging is not required and It is most suitable for your scenario particularity in field joints but again subjected to accept of PQR qualified with TGX  (as mentioned in the earlier email )

Thanks 

Suresh 

On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 12:01 PM munee...@gmail.com <munee...@gmail.com> wrote:

Suresh,

It's not that simple as you did not face that scenario.

Gentlemen, 

Here the current topic is for fillets, so reply with explicit as stated in previous email regarding ''chromium depletion'' 2 to 5 mm.

Dear Manoj,

I was to come to your point as the same  case happened to me and let all guys just imagine fabricated spools which already  installed at site and the  pipe configurationis 2 inch  schedule 20s, and pipe is 

With elbows leaving no open  fittings and an end to end connections there in any centre of a pipe a wear pad  to be installed; now how will  you purgeover 100 metres  continuous installed spools  without open fittings...

Contemplate? Mother pipe inside you have to purge for outside zero gap fillet weld?

So in this to purge entire pipe is not possible and after all  the fabrication is done,  suddenly some client will make a non  conformance saying chromium  depletion etc...

Now my question is we do not  disagree with the  metallurgical effects but why  we are so late in getting amendment with  this new scope without a  clear writing and there will  be 

different consequences for  different configurations that' s why in my previous email I  clearly wrote it should be  incorporated in international  standards removing the word  open root or underneath  purging root side but it  should be cleared with all  configurations of welds when  it comes to the factors  chromium depletion below 8 mm  or 6 mm or whatever your new  discoveries...

 In your case if purging has to be done then it should bring in amendment same like FBE coating before commencing of the project, you know why?

During fabrication we try to complete all the FBE coating spools welding within the fabrication shop as non-accessible areas inside the spools difficult to coat at site, I mean internal coating, so that's why we weld with all the attachments (completing all NDEs all the requirements) prior to spool hydro test followed by that FBE then directly site installation except if any minor modifications at site in rare case spool will be sent to coating shop.

Similar to that owner has to have his requirements and proactive notifications before commencing of the projects and at the early stage of the projects as lesson learnt from previous projects as chromium depletion to be considered for fillets for all configurations for SS and all non-ferrous below 8 mm or 6mm whatever as per the research before completing spool fabrications all attachments to be completed.

You know what? I am damn sure many experts who is mandating this case to be done but if you go back before 5 or 10 years none would had did purging for below 8 mm or 6 mm for fillets that too for attachments weld, let's be honest this is a new requirement(Fillet / all attachments) for SS and non ferrous.

Thanks.

---

Regards,

MOHAMED MUNEEB MAHABOOB

From: Paidi

Date: 2019-03-01 11:03

To: materials-welding

Subject: Re: [MW:29175] Backing gas as per API RP 582

Manoj, 

your Question is simple and answer also very simple as experts are stated in trailing emails..why you so confusing on this ... you are not clear while asking the question I think so . 

Suresh 

On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 10:15 AM Manoj John <manoj...@gmail.com> wrote:

If we weld an attachment like pad, cleats, supports to pipe line having below 4 mm thick wall thickness with SMAW process 

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 3:27 PM George Dilintas <dili...@gmail.com> wrote:

Usually root pass is not performed with SMAW. That is the reason 

Στις Δευ, 28 Ιαν 2019, 04:33 ο χρήστης Manoj John <manoj...@gmail.com> έγραψε:

Dear Experts,

As per clause 7.3 of API RP 582 Ed. 2016 back purging required for GTAW & GMAW process but no where I could found for other process like SMAW.  Is it mean that if we do welding with SMAW process back purging is not required?

Please share your interpretation.

Thanks and regards

Manoj.

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Thanks  & Best Regards,

Suresh Paidi

 

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Thanks  & Best Regards,

Suresh Paidi

 

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